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Contrarian Indicator is back

  • 1.  Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 21 days ago

    Hello AAIIers,

    I am a contrarian indicator. Whenever I take interest in investments the market goes down. But this time is different. Because it is AI. And AI is right in the middle of AAII. How are we supposed to navigate this market? Looks like AI has tremendous potential. And there is a lot of hype too. How do we pick the right stocks for investment? Or do we take the ETF route? What ETFs are best suited to cover global firms which can profit from the boom? More importantly what to avoid? 



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    CA|Investor-NV
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  • 2.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 20 days ago

    Here is an answer from AI

    This is a very good question. AI may be real, but "real technology" and "good investment at any price" are not the same thing. Railroads, the internet, fiber optics, and smartphones all changed the world, but investors still had to watch valuation, competition, balance sheets, and timing.

    My own view: do not start with "Which AI stock will win?" Start with "Where in the AI value chain is the profit likely to be durable?"

    AI investing has several layers:

    1. Infrastructure - semiconductors, memory, networking, data centers, power, cooling.
    2. Platforms - cloud providers and large software ecosystems.
    3. Applications - companies using AI to improve productivity, customer service, security, design, research, health care, finance, etc.
    4. Adopters - non-tech companies that may benefit from lower costs or better decisions.
    5. Speculative "AI label" companies - firms that add AI language to their story but may not have real earnings power.

    For most individual investors, I would be careful about trying to pick only one or two winners. The ETF route is probably more sensible, but even ETFs can be risky because many AI funds are concentrated in the same large stocks. Morningstar recently warned that many AI ETFs have roughly half their assets in their top 10 holdings, and their average valuation has been above the broader market.

    Some possible ETF categories:

    Broad AI ETFs:
    AIQ, BOTZ, ARTY, WTAI, IRBO. These give targeted exposure to AI, robotics, software, and related technology. For example, AIQ and BOTZ both charge 0.68%; BOTZ has global robotics/AI exposure and about $3.7 billion in assets. ARTY charges 0.47% and holds about 50 companies tied to AI technology. WTAI charges 0.45%.

    Semiconductor / AI infrastructure ETFs:
    SMH, SOXX, SOXQ. These are more direct plays on chips and AI infrastructure. SMH has done very well recently and charges 0.35%, but it is also more concentrated and cyclical.

    Broad market ETFs with AI exposure:
    VTI, VOO, QQQ, VT, ACWI. These are not "AI ETFs," but they already own many AI leaders. This may be the simplest route for someone who wants AI exposure without betting everything on the theme.

    What to avoid:

    Avoid funds or stocks that are too narrowly concentrated, especially if the valuation assumes years of perfect execution. Avoid companies that only talk about AI but cannot show revenue, margin improvement, or customer adoption. Be careful with leveraged AI/semiconductor ETFs unless you are trading, not investing. Also avoid assuming that every AI winner will be a stock-market winner; sometimes customers benefit more than suppliers.

    My practical answer would be:

    For a conservative investor, use a broad index fund as the core, then add only a small satellite position in an AI or semiconductor ETF. For example, 80–95% broad diversified funds, 5–20% AI-related exposure depending on risk tolerance. For a more aggressive investor, split the AI portion between a broad AI ETF and an infrastructure/semiconductor ETF. Rebalance regularly, because this area can become overweight very quickly after a big run.

    So yes, AI is important. But the investing rule is still old-fashioned: diversify, watch valuation, avoid hype, and do not confuse a great story with a great price.



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    WU ZHENG
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  • 3.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 19 days ago

    Thanks Wu! Stock picking is always tough, now we have to pick ETF. There are a ton of them including BAI and DRAM. What differentiate them is the stocks they hold. Picking them in turn imply picking stocks. Even if there is half truth to the hype, all of them should win. 



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    MA|Investor-NV
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  • 4.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 20 days ago

    My answer is: if it is too late for the long, wait for the opportunity to short.  When the "Contrarian Indicator" is asking for how to long, may be the time to short is near. LOL. 



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    WU ZHENG
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  • 5.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 12 days ago

    Interesting..

    Will all the negativity, it might turn out to be a good opportunity. Good luck.

    But watch out. All the moneys released today by heavy selling might be eying out for the new IPOs



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    A quarter reported, a quarter saved, a quarter wiser.
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  • 6.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 20 days ago

    Vinod

    First of all, there's a huge difference between being a "Contrarian Indicator" and being "contrary."

    =======================================================================

    A "contrarian indicator" is a metric or data point that signals investors to do the opposite of the prevailing market sentiment. The core principle is that when the majority of traders or the public become overly bullish or bearish, the market is often primed for a swift reversal.

    =======================================================================

    Your post does NOT sound like a you are seeking "Contrarian" advice as much as it sounds like a statement of "belief" about the direction of the market -- "Looks like AI has tremendous potential."

    =======================================================================

    "AI is right in the middle of AAII " would indicate that AAII is "stuck in the middle" and may be indifferent or indecisive whether its mission is to serve "AAs" or "IIs. " I would data on the AAII membership to make Venn diagrams to sort this conundrum out.

    If we take your lead to parse hidden messages in words related to AAII, we can get really confused about subliminal messages – "AmerICAN" "Association" "IndiviDUAL" "InVESTors" "mARKet" "SenTIMEment" "gROWth" "diviDENd" -- and if we try parsing AAII staff member NAMES we have an instant party game for the AAII Christmas Party.

    =======================================================================

    AI is may be a blessing and a curse. Like any new technology, there will be winners and losers both in market outcomes and implementation.

    In times of great opportunity and risk, I turn to Charlie Munger's advice to Warren Buffett, "The man with the most models wins."

    =======================================================================

    You may want to build a model and a plan based on the knowledge prior models provide.

    =======================================================================

    The BRK model would be a "good" model we could use to profit from AI.

    Turn an AI portfolio into a mini model of the BRK corporate portfolio –

    + a "good" company generating cash flow (insurance)

    + a portfolio of "good" companies

    + an investment portfolio of "good" companies.

    Find an engine to provide cash flow. WB chose insurance.

    Then add an investment portfolio of "good companies." The asset selection rules he used are outlined in several AAII Guru portfolios.

    Then read up on Munger's philosophy to educate yourself on the models Charlie relied on to educate and guide WB and BRK.

    ======================================================================

    What I have done so far to "model" BRK as a balanced AI investment portfolio is to use ...

    (a) an existing business model already generating large cash flows to support AI investment capex needs and has AAA or better credit worthiness; and

    (b) has an existing foundation to YOY and QOQ persistence in AI development, deployment, and marketing and selling AI tools, and 

    (c) use a invesment portfolio modeled on bogleheads.com, MEF.com, and 20+ related gurus in "Jack's Army."

    =======================================================================

    Jack Bogle's life story is a great model on how to build a "minimax portfolio" that minimizes transaction costs and maximizes the capability to match market performance. Jeff Bezos has a business adaptation of Bogle's famous corporate maxim for Vanguard's success: "Your margin is my opportunity."

    =======================================================================

    Thus, I split my portfolio into 3 "buckets" -

    Bucket  1  (25%):  Cash reserves in an MMF at 3.5% to invest as needed.

    Bucket  2  (25%):  A Total AI Market ETF (see below).

    Bucket 3 (50%): Specific AI stocks that I have deemed as "good" companies based on published descriptions and analyst reports on their business models.

    =======================================================================

    To anchor my AI portfolio, Bucket 1 as a "cash generator,"

    I bought shares in SWVXX MMF, the Schwab Value Advantage Money Fund.

    It is an actively managed, taxable (ugh) money market mutual fund primarily used by Schwab clients to park idle cash or hold emergency funds while earning a competitive yield.

    =======================================================================

    To anchor my AI portfolio Bucket 2 as a "market maximizing model", I researched AI ETFs, and I bought an ETF that had ... 

    (1) an AI market tracking strategy that had the best model (in my opinion) for

    (2) tracking Total AI Market performance,

    (3) provided the lowest cost ERs and fees, and

    (4) was marketed by a reputable company where I already have an account and have experienced their customer experience.

    that (1) minimizes transaction costs, and (2) grounds itself in building a Total AI Stock Market portfolio.

    =======================================================================

    I am in the process of selecting specific AI-related stocks to anchor my AI portfolio, Bucket 3. I am waiting for the results of pending IPOs and following the ongoing 10-Qs of the 6-10 companies with the largest analyst coverage (an indicator of market standing).

    =======================================================================

    In all this mishigas makes me meshugana. Oy vey! What's causing exasperation today?

    Feedback and critiques welcomed,

    Regards



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    BARRY JOHNSON
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  • 7.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 19 days ago

    Thanks Barry. I did mention why I am a contrarian indicator. I am not a contrarian investor but I follow the trend. By following trend I become contrarian indicator. 😁Yes, I believe AI has great potential and it is one in a life time investment opportunity. May be AI is not in the middle of AAII. 😉I am looking for the right model for the photo shoot. Looks like you are fully into the AI trade. Whatever happened to diversification? If you dont mind please share couple of your picks. Not the winners but those you see with hightest future potential.  They can be different, right?



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    MA|Investor-NV
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  • 8.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 20 days ago
    Edited by ROBERT ADAMS 20 days ago

    (I'll repeat here my response to you on the "Beginning Investors" page:)

    I humbly suggest that the best way to "navigate this market" is the same way one should ALWAYS navigate the market. One should buy good equities when they're reasonably priced and hold onto them until (1) they're no longer "good" or (2) until one finds something SUBSTANTIALLY better to buy. 

    Right now, I cannot find any good equities that I would call reasonably priced, so I'm just staying the course with what I have and allowing my cash reserves to build. I know this party won't last, but right now I'm enjoying it immensely! Buying a yacht is starting to look more and more prudent. 😁



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    Rob Adams
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  • 9.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 19 days ago

    Thanks Rob! There is a lot of promise and hype about AI. How does one position with the tactical allocation with the growth portion of his portfolio. Strangely there are companies which looks like value in this sector. If you look at the korean firms they are look dirt cheap even after the massive run. How much champagne flow are you expecting from yacht investment or cash outflow? 😄



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    MA|Investor-NV
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  • 10.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 17 days ago

    Vinod, my entire portfolio is focused on nothing but growth. Naturally, it doesn't always happen with everything I buy, but if an asset isn't producing portfolio growth within a few years, I get rid of it and replace it with something I think will grow like a weed. The focus on growth has of course led to a concentration in tech companies, and those in turn include so-called AI companies. The thing is, I bought them when they were not so heavily favored by the market. Buying a stock at its all-time high is dangerous.

    I generally shy away from foreign companies. There are too many good ones here at home. I do have stakes in one Canadian company and one Irish firm, but both do most of their business in the US, and neither is currently among my top performers.

    Champagne won't do me any good. I briefly experimented with certain chemical substances, including alcohol, in my teenage years, but I quickly decided they did not need to be a part of my life. There are too many good things to see and do and think about to waste time clouding my brain. (It's already fuzzy enough.) Just my humble opinion. To each his own! 😁

    As for the yacht, I think it's more prudent to get together with friends and charter one for few weeks per year instead of owning it. We can cruise anywhere in the world without having to sail across the Atlantic or Pacific to get there. A private yacht beats the heck out of one of those giant floating petri dishes!



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    Rob Adams
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  • 11.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 16 days ago

    Rob, Whatever you own there is heavy concetration of tech. But AI and semis are on a tear. Dont know how long it will last. There are some like hynix which is an alternative to MU which is not an ADR yet. MU is too expensive that is why i consider buying korean listed stock. Good to stay from chemicals and solvents. Society has become so permissive to these stuf. True, a lot of horror stories about cruises. Enjoy you yacht!

    One question, I received an aaii email from a member I assume, which I am not able to reply or search for his name. I did contract ssii member services but still waiting for their response. Are there any video or material about the social function of aaii community and how communications outside these message boards

    Thanks

    Vinod



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    MA|Investor-NV
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  • 12.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 15 days ago

    This is how I would navigate the AI market.  A few assumptions.  We are in the early innings and we don't know the winners.  Also, we want the AI infrastructure stocks.   So this is what I would do.  Use ETFs.  Soxx for AI chip stocks.   Grid to make the grid smarter.   ELFY to build more electric power plants, and IDGT, to build Data Centers.   



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    MARK SHEINGOLD
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  • 13.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 14 days ago

    Mark has the right idea. You can also sift through the holdings of those ETFs and pick and choose among them. However, the recent trajectory of the market is scaring me off for now (and that's very rare). Remember to be fearful when others are greedy! 😁



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    Rob Adams
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  • 14.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 14 days ago

    Dr Bob

    Me, too!

    When the noise volume grows this loud, it's time to tune out the message, sit on your pile. 

    There are 3 to 5 AI companies launching HUGE IPOs.

    Several will go to market capitalizations over $1 trillion  = 1 with 12 zeros = $1,000,000,000,000 --  in the first 5 days.

    The "market-makers" -- people who are insiders - will have hyped the price up those first 5 days ... then ... 

    Then they will take profits after day 6.

    Those profits will come out of your pile as prices decrease.

    Just another fund day in the market.

    Regards 



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    BARRY JOHNSON
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  • 15.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 13 days ago
    Edited by Vinod Nair 13 days ago

    Hi Barry - WADR, I have to disagree. In fact, I will argue that you got it exactly reverse. When these IPOs comes to market it creates new wealth which in turn ploughed into the market or other ventures. So the day 6 is a new beginning. That is what sustain the runs. I expect a lot of fun days in the market afterwards. 

    Regards 



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    MA|Investor-NV
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  • 16.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 13 days ago

    Too sweet to spit out and too sour to swallow. One worry about these ETFs are they all have influence of high levererage. Most of the individual stocks have run up 500/600 percent. For value you need to look elsewhere, korea and japan for example. Samsung is a candidate. But how to buy?



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    MA|Investor-NV
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  • 17.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 14 days ago

    Thanks Mark. SOXX is warm or may be hot. Looking deeper into SOXX, It has a volume of 7m. Then there is a 3X version of it, which has a 70m volume. There is also the 3x short version with big volume but the dollar amout is small. What should I make out of these? Is it a good thing or a bad thing or benign?  



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    MA|Investor-NV
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  • 18.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 14 days ago

    Don't touch the 3x or 3x short version.  That is for 3 - 5 day trades.  Not for buy and hold.  



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    MARK SHEINGOLD
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  • 19.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 13 days ago

    Sure, I am not touching the leveraged ETFs. but still worry about their effects. 



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    MA|Investor-NV
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  • 20.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 13 days ago

    Vinod, I LOVE triple-leveraged ETFs (at least some of them), but like any other asset, they're not for buying right after a big run-up. They're not for throwing your whole net worth at either. I've allocated only my "gambling money" to them. Their volatility provides loads of entertainment!



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    Rob Adams
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  • 21.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 13 days ago
    Edited by ROBERT ADAMS 13 days ago

    I have to disagree slightly with Mark on the 3x ETFs. In January 2022, I began a 10-year experiment of holding TQQQ. That first block that I bought is up about 200% in four-and-a-half years. I later averaged down in it, and I bought TECL and SOXL with the same idea of holding them. One of my blocks of SOXL is up over 3,000% in about 15 months! (I'm still kicking myself for selling a bunch of SOXL at 102-and-change out of our Roth accounts, although I made a nice profit on it. 😢) I don't expect SOXL to stay where it is forever, but I do expect that in another five or six years it will be substantially higher than it is now. My average gain in both TQQQ and TECL is around 350% with an average hold time of less than 4 years. My average gain in SOXL is about 780% in less than 3 years. I'll let y'all know how it all turns out when I get to the end of my experiment.



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    Rob Adams
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  • 22.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 13 days ago

    That is true.  I have heard similar statistics, but in a bad market you can lose 85% quickly.   Here is how the math works.    The stock is at 100.  Day one the stock is  up 1% and is up to 101.  Day 1, the triple is up 3% and is at 103.  Day 2, the stock is down 1%.   It's at 99.99.   A little worse than 100.  For the triple, it is 99.91.   Clearly worse.   Day 3, the stock is up 2%.   The stock is 101.9.    Day 3 the triple is at 105.9.  Day 4, the stock is down 3%.    The stock is at 98.84.  The triple is at 96.37.  so you can see how the math works against you.   I spent too much time on this.   



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    MARK SHEINGOLD
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  • 23.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 13 days ago

    Mark, I have been down more than 70% with that first block of TQQQ I bought. That's just the nature of market volatility. It provides an opportunity to nibble a bit more. If I had my whole "stash" riding on it, I'd be a nervous wreck. But I maintain the bulk of my assets in relatively safe equities, so I sleep well.



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    Rob Adams
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  • 24.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 14 days ago

    I am looking at a long hold.   Assuming AI is in the early innings, in the long run hopefully it will pay off.  



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    MARK SHEINGOLD
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  • 25.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 13 days ago

    Given all of the current activity about IPO's, I asked ChatGPT about the performance of the average IPO over the first year and was surprised by the results...

    • Falling below the IPO price
      • Research covering U.S. IPOs from 1990–2022 found that almost half of IPOs closed below their offer price one year after the IPO.
      • That means about 50% end the first year below the IPO price, but not necessarily by 50%.
    • Experiencing a 50% drop at some point
      • One academic study defined an "initial failure" as a stock dropping at least 50% from its first trading-day close within one year and found this was common enough to warrant extensive study.
      • But it is not true that a majority of IPOs necessarily suffer a 50% decline.
    • Average drawdown
      • The average IPO's worst decline during its first year was about 49%, which is probably the statistic you heard.


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    SANDY HARLOW
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  • 26.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 13 days ago
    Thanks, Sandy

    A little data is a lot better than a lot of opinions.

    Regards 





  • 27.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 12 days ago
    Edited by WU ZHENG 12 days ago

    Here is some more data and opinion on IPOs, specially spaceX IPO. . https://youtu.be/e33UP-pSdzA?si=jOCNqYYlrkqb9MXP

    I thought the concern was that the bubble might burst.

    Wu



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    WU ZHENG
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  • 28.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 12 days ago
    Thanks for the continuing stream of data points, Wu Zheng.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    My big concern is that this ominous portending "gold rush" to get rich on INFLATED IPOs
    might just take this roller coaster to the top and then
    ....  woooooooooooooooosh!!!!!! {Insert screaming.]

    This is not the only thread I've seen that started with the premise that ... NOW is the time to go FULL FOMO ... "TO THE MOON."
    As Cher said, it ain't me, Babe.
    But I do have some cash sitting on the "don't pass line" when the big "dip" comes. 
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I found an ETF of AI stocks named FIRST TRUST BLOOMBERG AI FUND - FAI.
    That might be the "don't get greedy" solution to bet on the "haystack" and let the market find the "needle."

    Regards
      





  • 29.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 12 days ago

    Hi Wu - Thanks for sharing. This is very useful. How materially does this change ones decision to get into SPCX? On the positive side, we may not have to wait till the lockup expiry to get in. Price discovery can happen much earlier. Do you consider lockup expiry when investing in IPO?



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    A quarter reported, a quarter saved, a quarter wiser.
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 12 days ago

    Vinod,

    I plan to observe it and wait for it to fall over, then short it. But every investor is different, when timing is right, both long and short can make money. For spacex, I plan to be on the short side.

    Wu



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    WU ZHENG
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  • 31.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 11 days ago

    Wu Zheng, why no just buy a put instead of shorting it?



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    MARK SHEINGOLD
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  • 32.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 11 days ago
    Mark, 

    Trading options requires very good timing. I have noticed that my directional predictions-whether the market will go up or down-are usually okay, but my timing is terrible. That is why I prefer direct short positions instead.

    Each short position is only a very small percentage of my portfolio. Even if one of them goes up 100%, I would not cry.

    Wu





  • 33.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 11 days ago

    Have you looked into DITM leaps.   That would give you 2 - 3 years to be right.   Here is a book on how to use them.   Just do the same thing only do it with puts, not calls.  

    https://www.amazon.com/INTRINSIC-Using-LEAPS-Retire-Early/dp/0578814161/ref=sr_1_1?crid=18YZM6XHF0P0T&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.3EJKNNFS5tYAthAlbn_eLghLtGgVw0p20O-5m0k87dk8LHVf3j99gtwrU5kY7yrsMqZDVJlWlvGAaLVnmLBLKAZ4ppwGKsEarTvJNTzpBoeWaQnKOUPSzUWLfHg04DPVwoOOIjTxMvQxMESZCYYpGiQQPKphHN7VcwHacyaWzNhb55oI-Ncai9WgTT_ehRG9fM_XSqjrlkA_t7JMTOnyrsOOCpTsgBRlT4oZaMXHxI0.mbPrQ056JuBAjTYdOv9zsVyNckIwynGpudUZEOZi6QI&dib_tag=se&keywords=intrinsic&qid=1780777131&sprefix=intrinsic%2Caps%2C212&sr=8-1



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    MARK SHEINGOLD
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  • 34.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 10 days ago
    Thank you for the suggestion.

    The following is a summary of the book by ChatGpT. I assume other members want to know to. 

    INTRINSIC: Using LEAPS to Retire Early by Mike Yuen is a practical investing book about using LEAPS - Long-Term Equity AnticiPation Securities - as a leveraged way to build wealth and potentially reach financial independence earlier. Yuen presents the strategy as something retail investors can understand and apply without being professional traders. The book was published around 2020 and is described as a 245-page guide focused on using options LEAPS to beat the market and retire early. 


    The core idea is that instead of buying shares outright, an investor can buy deep-in-the-money long-dated call options on high-quality growth stocks. These options behave somewhat like owning the stock, but require less upfront capital. Because the option controls 100 shares, the investor gets leveraged exposure while committing less cash than buying the shares directly. Yuen contrasts this with riskier out-of-the-money speculation and argues for a "safer" LEAPS approach aimed at long-term compounding. 


    The book's philosophy is tied to financial independence and time freedom. Yuen frames early retirement not just as accumulating money, but as reclaiming time for family, personal priorities, and meaningful living. His own story is central: he says he reached financial independence in 2017 using LEAPS, and the book explains the principles behind that outcome. 


    The investing method emphasizes selecting strong companies, buying long-dated calls with high intrinsic value, and avoiding overly complex options strategies. The title "Intrinsic" refers to the preference for options whose value is mostly intrinsic value rather than speculative time value. In plain terms, Yuen favors LEAPS that are already deep enough in the money to move more like the underlying stock.


    Key takeaways:


    1. Use LEAPS as stock replacement.
      The strategy treats deep-in-the-money LEAPS as a capital-efficient alternative to owning shares.
    2. Focus on quality growth stocks.
      The approach depends heavily on choosing companies that can appreciate over the long term. Poor stock selection can still lead to large losses.
    3. Buy time.
      Long expiration dates reduce the pressure of short-term timing compared with near-term options.
    4. Prefer intrinsic value over lottery-ticket options.
      The book discourages relying on cheap out-of-the-money calls and instead favors contracts with higher deltas and more built-in value.
    5. Leverage cuts both ways.
      LEAPS can magnify returns, but they can also magnify losses, decay in value, and expire worthless if the underlying investment thesis fails.
    6. Early retirement is the goal, not trading for its own sake.
      Yuen's broader message is to use investing as a tool to gain freedom over your time.



    My investor's read: the book is useful as an introduction to deep-in-the-money LEAPS as leveraged long exposure, especially for someone comfortable with equity investing but newer to options. The biggest weakness is that the strategy can look deceptively safe during bull markets. It relies on picking winners, managing expiration risk, avoiding overconcentration, and surviving major drawdowns. A prudent reader should treat it as a framework to study, not a guaranteed retirement formula.







  • 35.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 10 days ago

    Agreed.    My point was you could do it in reverse and use DITM puts.   



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    MARK SHEINGOLD
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  • 36.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 10 days ago

    Will options be available immediately after the IPO? Or does it take sometime to list them in the options market?



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    A quarter reported, a quarter saved, a quarter wiser.
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  • 37.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 12 days ago

    Here is a link to a Morningstar research paper on AI stocks and IPOs that may help you evaluate AI opportunities.

    https://assets.contentstack.io/v3/assets/blt9415ea4cc4157833/bltef88605200a90ed5/Opportunities-in-AI-US.pdf?utm_source=eloqua&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=res_na_usa_n_en_2606_bf_n_n_researchinsidernewsletter&utm_content=_74668&utm_id=36394

    Regards



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    BARRY JOHNSON
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  • 38.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 12 days ago

    Barry-Thanks for sharing🙏. Excellent report, especially the fund part. I think already mentioned BAI and AIQ elesewhere. Then there are segments such as semis and memory represented by SOXX and DRAM.

    Thanks

    Vinod



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    A quarter reported, a quarter saved, a quarter wiser.
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  • 39.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 9 days ago
    Edited by BARRY JOHNSON 9 days ago

    Morningstar has issued a research report that projects their estimated fair value for the SPCX IPO scheduled for Friday, June 12.

    Fair value is 1 of 5 measures they use to estimate stock valuation.

    I know the "shoot the moon" Roarin' Kitty crowd has an opinion on this. Their report provides a detailed, disciplined approach to determine a reasonable price for SPCX using a 3-scenario approach. This approach has proven useful in similar forecasting of uncertain future scenarios. 

    Using data and a disciplined approach is not in favor among the Reddit "shoot the moon" crowd, but that ain't my style. 

    If you wish to read the report, here's the link ...

    https://www.morningstar.com/stocks/spacex-what-investors-need-know-about-its-enormous-upcoming-ipo#what-are-spacex-shares-worth

    Regards



  • 40.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 9 days ago

    Barry, thank you for the article. One statement from it says it all: 

    "We think long-term investors eager to participate in SpaceX's future endeavors and potential success will have opportunities to do so with a greater margin of safety than the initial offering is likely to provide."

    I'd love to own a chunk of this company, but only if I could get it at a garage-sale price. 



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    Rob Adams
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  • 41.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 7 days ago

    When it comes to SpaceX, they are shooting beyond moon literally, to mars that is. Morningstar valuation does look reasonable. But I am still expecting a buying frenzy on the opening day.  



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    A quarter reported, a quarter saved, a quarter wiser.
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  • 42.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 7 days ago
    Edited by BARRY JOHNSON 7 days ago
    I love it when someone intentionally ignores the data and persists in presenting a strong opinion.
    The data and estimates MorningStar provides are ...
    The SpaceX project has a 4% (worst case), 50% (a Bernoulli flip), or 60% (best case) chance of success. 
    That's the Bernoulli Saint Petersburg bet ... keep betting until you lose it all. It's just a matter of time.
    On top of all that is the SMALL problem that ALL the technologies SPCX Relies on To produce orbiting data centers and get the energy produced back to the Earth .... are untested and very difficult. The probability of success is as low as 4%. Once again, the odds are steep. In this case, it's 25 to 1 which is essentially the same odds you get on a roulette wheel betting on one number. 
    Another sucker bet. 
    If you wait out the 5-day IPO run-up and you get a price even lower than the offering price You still have the fact that the total revenue and cash flow SPCX produced Last year was $20 billion which At best is Less than 1% of compared to a 50% ourcome for the offering price. 
    That means it'll take 50 years to recover your investment.
    Morningstar does project potential for higher revenue, but that all dpends onthimpleneting the technologies. 
    That will take until 2032 to see revenue.
    Once again, it's a sucker bet.
    I should mention that ALL the above probabilities are compounded which means the NET PROBABILITY
    of a successful outcome is 50% x 50% x 4% = ~1%.

    The larger market context
    is that there are 4-5 other IPOs that have much better performance history odds.
    Meanwhile, during those 6 years to prove that orbiting data centers work, a sizable chunk of your cash will be tied up in Musk's "moon shot."
    And some Forecasters are watching the market indicators
    because 80% of them show that the market valuations are topping.  If they are right, there will be plenty of opportunities to buy well-known companies that have long histories of providing cash flow and revenue at DOCUMENTED levels.
    The BIGGEST risk IMHO is Elon Musk's ego.
    He hates Sam Altman.
    He lost the recent case.
    Musk RUSHED this IPO just to try to beat Altman's OpenAI IPO.
    If you bet on SPCX, you would not be the first person to LOSE MONEY by following an Elon Musk ego bet.  
    People who ignore these kinds of risks also think they could jump off a building and bounce because they also believe that gravity is just a theory  -- like analytical statistics and fundamental analysis -- that do not apply to them.
    Regards


  • 43.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 7 days ago
    If SPACEX price will go up for several days and drop, then you both right. One will make money by long on initial up, the other will make money by short on the drop, it is all about timing. Good luck for both.




  • 44.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 7 days ago

    my plan is not to speculate for a few days but to invest for long term. this one has special attraction of being part of something big however miniscule that may be. if i get IPO allocation, i will take it but i am not going to take part in the opening day frenzy. If I dont get it, then I will wait till the price settle down. Then keep watching the progress on a quarterly basis. 



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    A quarter reported, a quarter saved, a quarter wiser.
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  • 45.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 7 days ago

    I appreciate those who look at my investments critically and cynically. People get paid for this kind of stuff. I am no fan of Musk's ego at the same time I recognize the contributions of both Musk and Sam Altman. When it comes to SPCX, its business is not just space launch, they have starlink which seems to be making money, then there is grok and xAI. xAI alone is comparable to OpenAI even though they may not have the best model yet. Old twitter is still part of it. And the sum of the parts are bigger than the whole when it comes to company valuation 



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    A quarter reported, a quarter saved, a quarter wiser.
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  • 46.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 6 days ago
    Edited by ROBERT ADAMS 6 days ago

    Vinod, I sincerely wish you the best with your anticipated investment. Nevertheless, I humbly suggest that you THINK twice about it. Are you investing because the numbers add up, or are you being caught up in the hype? There is more to investing than simply finding good companies and paying whatever the asking price is for them. One also needs to make sure they're not paying too much for the ride. 

    If you've seriously considered that and still want to move forward, then I hope you make a bundle! 😁

    "Investors should remember that excitement and expenses are their enemies." - Warren Buffett

    As for me, I think I'll just wait for SpaceX to show up in some of my index ETFs.



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    Rob Adams
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  • 47.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 6 days ago

    Waiting for it to show up in an Index ETF is really great advice! Or, if you have strong conviction then wait for it's pull back from the frenzy.  I wrote deep out of the money on FB (META) for quite some time.  Picked up so cash, and eventually assigned the stock.  YMMV.



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    W MC GOWN
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  • 48.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 6 days ago

    Rob - Thank you. You are right. Whether we buy or not SPCX is going to show up in our portfolio thought the funds and ETFs we hold. I shall restrain myself and hold off for now. 



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    A quarter reported, a quarter saved, a quarter wiser.
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  • 49.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 6 days ago

    I usse AI a ton.  I can tell you that Grok is failing.   It is falling behind Gemini, Chatgtp, and Claude.   



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    MARK SHEINGOLD
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  • 50.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 6 days ago





  • 51.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 6 days ago

    Good ones, Wu. Thanks for sharing



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    A quarter reported, a quarter saved, a quarter wiser.
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  • 52.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 6 days ago
    Edited by Vinod Nair 5 days ago

    I agree Mark. I too splurge on llm. I signed up just to try them out. Now I use chatgpt for conversations, Claude for coding and Gemini for searches. I also did not unsubscribe grok which I use to generate videos. I need to cut down on consumption 😀



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    A quarter reported, a quarter saved, a quarter wiser.
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  • 53.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 5 days ago

    Vindod,

    Kind of the same.   Claude for serious stuff, and chatgtp for conversations.  



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    MARK SHEINGOLD
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  • 54.  RE: Contrarian Indicator is back

    Posted 5 days ago
    I have build problems that Claud can notfix, I end up picking up chatgpt again for all coding.
    The problem is the more I use, the more money they lose. $20 a month is not enough to cover their cost.

    Wu